Thanks for the thoughts and prayers regarding the apartment situation. Right at the moment we have a couple good possibilities, one looking pretty good...though you never know, obviously. The one that's looking good asked if it would even be possible to move in befure 1 July...we figure what the hey, if that's what he needs and will take the apartment, we'll find a place for Stacey to stay temporarily. There are a couple good places under bridges around here that don't smell TOO much like vodkapiss.
Thanks for the sum-up of some of the articles. Those sound really really great.
I think the whole idea of asceticism and Orthodoxy and whatnot is definitely part of what drew me, even though, well, to look at my life now...yeah. I probably posted this just recently but Fr. Stephen and I talked just recently about this and I think I'm ready to start living under a more clearcut rule. I deliberately didn't put anything in place because of my background in and tendency toward legalism, judgementalism, etc. That's going to be a struggle my whole life but I feel as if I've learned a lot in the past couple years, God's granted me a ton of grace, and Stacey helps add a ton of balance...and anyway, at this point it's less about feeling like I'm a bad person because I don't do certain things -- and that's huge progress for me. Now it's more that, without really feeling guilty, I'm starting to realize just how flawed I am in so much of life, and that I'm holding myself back by NOT partaking in what I want to do, what I need.
Before I go any more, I do want to answer your question. In regards to baptism, it's really somewhere in the middle. The IDEAL is 3 times, full immersion. "Immersion" (and you'll want to research this a bit more, I'm going some off memory, some off an article I'll link to in a minute, and part off of the fact that Fr. Stephen talked about this in Inquirers class the past few weeks), again, probably the Ideal ideal is for someone to go physically submerged under water 3 times. However, when this is not really something a church is able to do, pouring water over someone (also referred to as "immersion," I believe, but I'd research this before going really public with it, hehe) while they stand inside a small font will also work. There are even pictures of old churches drawn with this sort of thing depicted. In addition, originally people were baptized naked. If it were a man/boy, deacons and others in the church would attend while the priest or bishop actually did the baptism. If it were a woman, the priest or bishop would do the baptism with deaconesses or other women attending. However, in some situations deacons or even laypeople can perform baptisms if necessary...I'm pretty sure Fr. Stephen said.
Here's an article actually written by a guy at the same church as our next priest is coming from.
Here's a piece from the Didache:
7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.
(By the way, I copied/pasted from here; I've not read the full Didache (though not long ago I got a book with it and some commentary)). Anyway, the one difference I see between the translation I picked up and the one there (and unfortunately I've not really verified that the one I own is a really good one, if that's even an issue) is that the "living/running" water is referred to as "flowing." That basically applies to a small body of water (like in a baptistry or whatever...where someone could be physically dipped). However, as you can see, even from early early on in the church, they understand that some would "have neither" and made adjustments for that.
Here's another thing I want to mention...
One of the things Fr. Stephen has asked us about in regards to the the marriage is about a family patron saint. He'd suggested Our Lady of Walsingham but we really wanted to think about it and discuss it. I mean, it sounds like shopping for a car or something and it's not, but we didn't want to just say "yeah, that sounds good" and be flippant about it, either! While Our Lady intercedes for us and it's not like we don't feel devotion to her (Stacey has really been pretty on board with all of this, she seems to take it easier than I did at first), we were wanting to name a patron saint known for social involvement, or caring for children, or something along those lines. Kind of hard to explain, I guess. Well, the other night we were out to dinner with a couple guys from our church and one suggested that on our honeymoon in Chicago, we visit St. George's in Cicero, IL, to visit the weeping icon of Our Lady. Our church has a replica of the icon. The basic story can be found here. I'd thought about it but not really mentioned it to Stacey but we talked about it and decided to visit the weeping icon in Cicero and choose Our Lady of Cicero as our family patron saint...because she weeps for the world, as is mentioned in that little piece. I don't know, I can't explain it, but I think you (both) understand.
Interestingly enough, we do at the end of our liturgy sing a Marian Anthem (the Salve Regina during this time of year) and ask Our Lady of Walsingham and Our Lady of Cicero for intercession.
First of all, I'm glad you like the Light and Life catalog. I've not been able to go near one in quite some time for the reasons you mentioned. Is it sin to desire so many things if they're Orthodox books, materials, etc.? There's a paradox. I could probably pick one of those catalogs up and easily order $1k worth of books and so forth in no time.
This leads to the question of how they earn their living. Well, I know that a lot of the Orthodox, particularly converts and clergy, tend to get a lot of books. I mean, most people in my church, if you talk to them, have bought far more books on actual Christianity and theology and the Christian life (sorry, Graham Parsons) and whatnot than what I remember pretty much anyone getting over the years I worked at Lemstone. Most Orthodox churches, from what I can tell, end up ordering a fair amount of merch from L&L and a few other sources and just have little miniature bookstores for the congregation. I have more than a sneaking suspicion that a decent number of these books are also purchased for non-Orthodox friends, relatives, etc., as well.
Just so you know what we're talking about, Walker... Light and Life.
By the way, I'd love to check out the other stuff he copied and sent in the packet...just let me know what it is or what it's from and I can try and track it down.
I definitely understand the AOL IM thing. Honestly, I'm rarely on it myself...usually just if I know someone else is going to be on.
Stacey and I want to go see Fahrenheit 9/11, too. One of the guys from church (I teach his kids in Sunday School, actually) is taking us out to dinner tonight but hopefully we can check it out this weekend. Of course, that'll only make me rant and rave for months on end...but I guess I probably will be either way.
As far as the bishops, Communion, Kerry thing...
I think I sympathize and understand the reasons behind that. I think it's a way for a priest to fulfill his role without necessarily being politically partisan. I'm not sure the propriety of how public a lot of this is, but whatever. That's something that should be between the bishops, the priests, and the politician. I think the issue of withholding Communion from those who vote a certain way, however, is preposterous. That's where issues like the death penalty and the war in Iraq really start to enter in...and an abundance of others. That's really very precarious.
All right, almost time to leave work now...must do a little more work...
You know, I'm really sort of speechless (momentarily, of course, haha) in regards to that whole "gifts" and whatnot issue coming up in the Spirituality & Philosophy forum right now. I'm trying to be quiet and just pray until I'm baptized in the Holy Spirit and know what to say. Just kidding about that second part...but I really am just being quiet and praying until I feel very led in regards to what to say. It's so easy (and fun, too!) to just sort of generalize and attack as a fleshly response, but I know that's not the way to go. I do that far too much as it is.
Here's something I would love to post on there but know that it (a) is really too long to expect folks to read; and (b) is from a specifically Orthodox perspective and written to either those who are Orthodox or who come to the article understanding certain things and their backgrounds already. For example, your average inquiring Pentecostal, Baptist, or whatever reader isn't going to understand some of what's said about the charismatic movement's effect on Roman Catholicism because they don't really know some of the basics about Roman Catholicism (at least in a correct way) or what the basics of Orthodoxy are...and these things must go without saying for the sake of brevity and cohesion. You understand...
It's written by Fr. Seraphim Rose, a 20th century monastic out in Alaska and I think California sometimes...(he and St. John Maximovitch are both 20th Century Orthodox monastics who lived incredible lives and wrote some great things). I really need to read quite a bit more of what he's read as I really haven't much yet. Someone just recently published a biography of him that I know Light & Life has...I intend to get that pretty soon. Anyway, I've started reading the piece and it's really quite good so far.
EDIT: Some of those he quotes in the piece are a bit radical and don't really explain their positions in ways that validates them. For example, the assertions about Imitation of Christ (and pretty much that whole paragraph) are that of the particular bishop he's quoting...and like anyone else, sometimes bishops say and believe things that take good ideas far past what is balanced. I think that whole page brings up a couple really important points, but I think some of the criticisms leveled at those outside Orthodoxy are a little bit of a stretch. I think that Bishop Ignatius' point is a good one, in that those who try and attain for a higher spirituality and a sort of religious intoxication and such without repentance and preparation and within the context of the Church (be it RC or Orthodox) are setting themselves up for some scary and non-Christian things, though. In another section later on, Bishop Ignatius rambles about feeling warmth and makes some other comments that frankly, don't make any sense. I really wish his comments were either explained a ton better or just not inserted at all. Perhaps it's just my own pride and inability to get some of it, but some of what Bishop Ignatius is saying is aggressive without really having reason to be (at least well-explained and reasonable). I think there's also an extent to which cultural differences cause some misunderstandings (his brief comments on the "Jesus Movement" and referring to "the crudest form of American pop music," though the truth of that statement isn't necessarily wrong, haha).
Anyway, as a whole, I think the article is very enlightening. Some of the particulars are iffy and even detract from what he has to say.
Second Edit: (I hope this is the last...I'll just make a new post!)
http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/wareonhs.html
is a piece written by Fr. Kallistos Ware (who wrote The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way and is one of the contemporary English writers and speakers amongst Orthodoxy who has an incredible amount of ability to research and explain things). It goes in a totally different direction than the article above but may be of some interest to you.
Obviously my boss isn't around today...hehehe.
I'd like to find more research about the fact that these sorts of "manifestations" are an almost entirely modern phenomena and are at a disconnect with the true Apostolic Church.
I'm going to respond to your post later on today....just had to toss this in there.
I found this really great article about the whole Left Behind thing. Thought you guys might find it interesting. It details some of the theological errors and anti-Catholic thought. It also mentions what I was actually looking for when I ran across it...the fact that LaHaye is actually an affilate of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon (who claims to be the Messiah because Jesus failed in his mission to earth)...Moon's VP contributed a bunch of money to LaHaye, who has served on some of Moon's committees, spoken at his events, etc. Crazy crazy stuff.
The Unwed Sailor show was quite good. Kite Pilot was really on, hopefully you can see them play sometime. Unwed Sailor played in a bit more aggressive, rock and roll style as opposed to the pretty noodling they built their reputation on...I dig it either way and it's very well done whichever style they work with. O'Leaver's is a pretty decent place and I have had fun both times I've been there.
The B&N girls sounds intriguing. You probably are best off waiting til she's in college. For some odd reason that can make a huge difference. Do you know her name at all? I think you might have told me but I forget. I may have even seen her around the University if she's been in for an orientation session.
Stacey's chrismation went well today. The church has been very welcoming of her and today was sort of a party type thing. She's really quite happy about the whole thing.
On another aside, please pray for my patience, stamina, etc. This whole apartment finding thing is just a pain in the ass, part of it being to get someone else into her efficiency. We think we've found someone but as always, I have nagging feelings not to ever be sure about it. Another big thing is that for quite some time now....not quite a year, but quite some time, I've been struggling with writing and being able to do so much. I really honestly think that once we get our own place things will be fine, but right now and for the last quite a while, it has been hard...for a variety of reasons. We're looking for a place with 2 bedrooms so that I can use one as a study (and it would double as a guest room or whatever) and be able to work with peace, quiet, and minimal interruption. I feel strongly that this is what I'm supposed to do -- focus on writing -- but it seems as if a thousand things constantly impede that. I often lie awake for quite some time at night with ideas in my head, but can't actually sit down and write...I always feel I'm about to be interrupted because I often am. I feel on the verge of a big writing binge...please pray I have patience and it either comes along and I can work with it or that it holds off until I'm able to do it...I'm constantly frustrated about it these days.
Incidentally, Jeff...have you heard Johnny Cash's version of "Lucky Old Sun"?
There's no comparing the two versions, they're both legends...but they both send chills.
Also I think that "I'm Busted" totally captures the feeling you later describe in the article about your dad being out of work and all...perfect example of your whole point.
Before I forget to mention this (and it's not something I should forget to mention!), Stacey will be chrismated this coming Sunday. She's pretty excited about it, as am I. We and Fr. Stephen have had discussions on this topic and she knows this is HER decision, she doesn't have to just for us to get married or anything like that...but she sincerely wants to become Orthodox and the chrismation is this Sunday.
Okay, reply time!
How to Talk Dirty and Influence People is the book I'm reading.
Here's a brief and terrible paragraph I wrote about Desolation Angels:
This past weekend I finished reading Kerouac's Desolation Angels. I'm realizing now that I should have read Visions of Cody and perhaps reread The Subterraneans before this for a more full view of the Beats and Kerouac's contemporaries, but as a book itself Desolation Angels is quite wonderful. Kerouac explores spirituality in ways certainly not explored in On The Road or even Dharma Bums, nodding quite a bit to both Zen Buddhism (particularly in the first part of the book, which is a journal of his meditations while alone on a mountain watching for fires) and traditional (as opposed to Protestant) Christianity. Where On The Road and other books celebrate the spontaneity, freedom and transience of "the Beat Generation," Desolation Angels moves past that into pondering just how empty so much of that life (in Kerouac's opinion) really is. By the end of the book the narrator is writing at length in praise of his mother and explaining why he prefers to live with her over anything else (which Kerouac DID until he died) and criticizing the hipsters and subculture that claimed, even then, to be influenced by him and the other Beats. I'm not going to go on a long analysis right here for now (I am at work, after all) but other subtle elements in his writing and narrative style reflect the changes since earlier days. I also really enjoy the Raphael Urso (Gregory Corso) character quite a bit.
In regards to your post about it, Jeff, I was reading with the whole Dylan thing in mind...I remember you had told me that about it so I was really trying to think about that. Probably the first...maybe half...of the book is just Kerouac up on the mountain, so it's very meditative and spiritual alongside narrative that isn't particularly anywhere near his most interesting, but very descriptive and necessary to understanding the meditations and his life at that point. It tends to get very stream-of-consciousness (way past the usual Kerouac) and mystical at points, and obviously Dylan was doing a lot of this with Hwy. 61, Blood on the Tracks, etc.
Once Jack comes down off the mountain, he spends a lot of time with his various associates, the usual suspects are involved to one extent or another, for the most part. However, Kerouac just reads a ton differently...his detachment is much more obvious than in On the Road and he spends a ton of time analyzing others' relationships and ways of life and living. While he participates with them (some of the time), you feel like you're reading a narrator whose assignment it is to spend time with "the Beats" as opposed to someone fully absorbed in the crew and lifestyle. A lot of this has to do with the fact that while On the Road feels like it was written in the weeks after the adventures described there (despite some time differential in them!), Desolation Angels feels like it was written when it historically was...a good number of years post. Kerouac is fairly often self-referential, referring to his own writing and what was going to happen in the future (from the perspective of the current story) or what had happened in the past and where you could read it. Where this relates to Dylan is that the book is much more linear than On the Road, at least it feels that way...it feels like a chronology of events and places and less like a series of adventures, if that makes any sense...and I think that shows up in Dylan's music in that at a certain point he started telling more stories as opposed to just singing about emotions or ideals and whatnot. That's probably stretching out on a limb, but a thought nonetheless.
The other thing I see, this a good bit bigger, is that both Kerouac and Dylan began to consciously and openly acknowledge a distance between themselves and The Movement, even criticizing certain elements of it. Kerouac writes of feeling uncomfortable and out of place at a party full of people he realizes are part of a subculture that claims him as one of its founders and heavy influences. He acknowledges the emptiness in the lives of those around him. Dylan writes things like "Younger Than Yesterday" and other more veiled "It's All Over Now" type songs, develops his music, etc. Perhaps Kerouac's own struggles of being held up as some sort of icon and generational hero and the writing that came from that...perhaps those helped Dylan with very similar feelings and ideas.
Sorry that the above wasn't very literate...just sort of hacking this out at work. I'd love to explore this more and read some of what's been written about it, for sure.
Thanks for the Ray Charles thing...I'm looking it over here and there when I can. : ) Nice stuff.
Oooh, I'll have to respond to your post later, Jeff...good stuff.
Walker: We can show up there closer to 9:30 and it'll be cool. Whenever you want to get to my house is fine...9ish should work. I'll probably be watching the Cubs game so no real sweat on the time.
EDIT: Stacey and I do have our marriage counseling meeting tonight at church so probably won't be back before 8:30 (but hopefully around that time) so around 9 is probably the way to go.
I just talked to the bartender and 3 bands are playing. The first will probably be Kite Pilot, a local outfit that's really pretty good. The bass player and I talk sometimes, he's a nice guy and doing a few projects at once right now. He is one of the few people I actually ever talk to from my Beats & Hippies class, though we never really talked in there. More on Kite Pilot's sound right here. His solo stuff is great and he's in a really good band called Little Brazil, as well. You know about Unwed Sailor already. There's another band with Unwed Sailor right now, Snailhuntr. I reviewed their record a while back as well.
Walker, regarding that show tonight...it's at 9 tonight at O'Leaver's. I can drive, you can drive, whichever. It may start at 9:30...I'll try and call and post about it late this afternoon but if not, we'll just see what happens. I'm seeing reports of either 2 bands or 3 playing...hopefully just 2.
By the way, this is the sort of place that has shows pretty often (see link above) and pretty decent ones at that, so it's a good place for perhaps nights when Steele and Reynolds are bored and insist on going out. Also they have Guinness on tap. I'll probably go see more shows there once Stacey's old enough to accompany. I tend to absolutely hate 99% of all bars I've gone to but I'll drop by one now and then if a good show is involved. I just wish we got a bit more of the legitimate folk circuit down our way.
By the way, I just finished Desolation Angels and am well into Lenny Bruce's autobiography, in case anyone cares.
By the way, Jeff, that little piece on Ray Charles and Ronald Reagan is amazing. Please please please do a full essay or something on it that we can publish. I love it!
Hey there...
My professor (the one who Chairs our English Dept. and teaches the Beats & Hippies course) sent me a link to this article in the NY Times about an Oxford professor who just recently wrote a 500 pg. book entitled Dylan's Visions of Sin, which looks to be a marvelous book.
You know, Walker, I think part of what you addressed in that first paragraph is just a matter of different types of people and priorities and whatnot. I mean, obviously we can't all be like that and that's a good thing. I go through times when I really shy away from doing that, as well...and sometimes for me, it's less about stamina and more about stubbornness or pride or something...thank God that maybe He uses it nonetheless.
I was thinking, as far as portrait stuff goes...let me know what you think of these pictures. I'm going to try and post a couple here.
Yeah, I can think of a couple Russian novels I need to read.
RE: the whole Augustinian thing...
See, I think the research and line of historical thought in the longer article is really very well-done. However, the author is VERY over-the-top in so much of it that I knew I couldn't post just that...it isn't the overall Orthodox opinion on St. Augustine in the least bit. Some Orthodox do only refer to him as "Blessed Augustine" but many of us recognize his (in most's opinion, well-deserved) sainthood. Fr. Stephen, when bringing up these issues, is always sure to explain that St. Augustine wrote many wonderful things and is definitely a great writer and defender of the Faith and was just "off" in certain areas. That's why I posted the other article...because the terribly negative article certainly is far from the consensus. Just wanted to make sure there was some uh, balance there.
I'm glad the book got there! I was beginning to wonder how soon it would arrive. I'm glad Beth's taken to it...we were going to start working through it with Fr. Stephen tonight but instead he ended up discussing for most of the time the sacrement of Confession. Stacey's to be chrismated in a couple weeks and will have to make confession before then and I mentioned that perhaps soon we should discuss the subject so she knows what it's about.
I definitely dig what you're saying about people being in different places. Jenevive is a friend of mine (she and her husband actually live about 15 minutes from me; they're vegans and cook incredible meals for us once in a while) and so I know a bit more about her situation...and without really being judgemental, yes...I think she's at a certain place. She and her husband are wonderful people but in sort of the same place I was before really exploring Orthodoxy: she comes from a more "Charismatic" background so it's not really all the same, but she's really gotten well past the whole "ooh, I'm not allowed to say *this* word" place...I think we can all here relate to that. However, I think the next place so many of us go is to sort of go after those who still ARE there...for a variety of reasons I won't go into now. For quite some time I was lacking the grace to really just let those things go and let people figure those things out without really belittling them. Of course, I say that and then turn around and make terrible, awful comments about people sometimes. Lord have mercy. Anyway, yes, it is really interesting to see the different places we're all at in those forums.
Then there's what some of us refer to as "Orthodox Convert Syndrome." We discuss it here all the time, I think, just not in those terms. We're really very excited and gung ho on the spiritual steps we've taken, praise God for them...but get really fairly aggressive and even radical in our approach to others who are still, you know, Billy Baptist and Pablo Pentecostal. Truth without grace and love is a clanging cymbal or pounding drum, like Paul says.
I think the important thing is REALIZING these things and not turning them into life-long difficulties and issues. That's the sort of thing that results in, well, that long St. Augustine piece or really some of St. Augustine's hang-ups. For folks like us there's this progression...once we're sort of "liberated" from our fundamentalist background, initially our tendency is to lash out at is we realize the shortcomings, both in it and that it has ingrained in us. We often take the same approach to it that it takes to everyone else. I mean, good God, we've had this conversation a thousand times...but this results in making fun of people who get upset about the use of the word "shit" or think rock and roll is bad or keep handfuls of Jack Chick tracts in their gloveboxes. The tendency is to both aggravate those sentiments while at the same time exploring our freedom: not out of pure motive or true self-actualization but simply Because We Can. True Christianity balances all of that out...and sometimes it takes a good ass-kicking to realize our own need for grace, not just for our own wickedness (which as we grow closer to Christ and are enlightened, we realize is much much worse than we ever thought, even when we were legalistic!) but also our need for grace in order to pass it along to others who we are more than willing to declare as needing it.
Oh and I do have that Alan Jones book, Jeff...I think you got it for me quite some time ago. Thanks again. : )
Pablo Pentecostal just sort of came to me. I have no idea what it means...it was the only "P" name I could think of besides "Peter" and I didn't want to burden Jeff with that. Perhaps we should start our own Chick-like anti-Protestant tract series starring Pablo Pentecostal, Eddie Evangelical, and Bobby Baptist. I hope I'm not really as mean as I sound...I often wonder if I'm out of touch with exactly how (insert any adjective) I really am because I've desensitized myself to it. I think part of the issue is that I joke so much that sometimes I'm not sure if I'm kidding or not.
I'd really like to write a bit more tonight, but I'm drained, as well. This whole wedding plans thing is just absolutely tiring me out. I'm having a difficult time writing much of anything, which in turn gets me pretty frustrated.
By the way, that link to that messageboard I gave...by my own earlier admission, I've not checked it out much. In looking at it more, it's pretty wild and woolly. Lots of arguers there. I remember now why I didn't hang around much! I'm all for a spirited, even heated discussion and debate but there's quite a bit of pointless, unnecessary arguing that seems to go on there (even more than Vagrant!), which is really disheartening.
RE: the part that starts with "Anyway...moving on..." and the several concurrent paragraphs...
Yes yes yes!
That's a concept that's really sort of pulled my thinking around for the past few years. Coming out of the whole "guilt" scene and all. I don't know if you've read it or not, though I'm sure I've shown it to you...this book called Who Told You That You Were Naked?, written by a Trappist at Gethsemane, addresses all of this totally head-on. This all is so beautifully pre-Augustinian! That reminds me, I'm going to send you a copy of a tape from last week's Inquirer's Class. I don't normally tape them (perhaps I should!) but happened to on the request of someone who normally goes but couldn't make it that week. Fr. Stephen talks a lot about the idea of "original sin" vs. "ancestral sin" and St. Augustine's role in all this, how his ideas really shaped Western thought, etc. I'd have liked for him to expand on it for another hour or so, but that's okay. : )
A site that explains it somewhat This site offers a pretty good explanation. I'll be honest, I think some of this one could do better at inserting actual text and some of it extends past what I've heard various other mainstream Orthodox teach (not to say it isn't true, he just goes into it a bit more) so I'm not necessarily willing to stand by all of it. The general jist is explained pretty well there, however. The main reason I posted that is that it explains the whole Romans 5:12 thing better than I could -- on the other hand, it leaves out the fact that St. Augustine was going off of Jerome's translation, not necessarily making up his own (and it later points out that he didn't really know Greek, so he wasn't capable of his own interpretation of it...he was just going off of Jerome's) simply for the sake of twisting it...that's going a bit far.
Anyway, I think that gives the basic idea of all this. I think that what is important for people (be they Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) to realize is that this whole line of thinking (which brought about the idea of priests being single and celibate, the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady, and so on) isn't necessarily one shared by ALL Roman Catholics, but certainly enough to be influential in Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Western Culture as a whole.
Okay, on the practical questions portion...
We've registered at Target. I think maybe Sears or JCPenney too.
And yeah...what you said sounds like pretty much what's going on. Invitations should be going out really soon, I think.
In other little bit of news:
Stacey's family (well, except for her dad and Luke) came and visited for a few days, left this morning. They ended up coming to Liturgy on Sunday morning...which was a bit different from usual because it was Pentecost, but that's okay. I'm honestly not sure what they thought of it, though the younger kids behaved really well and seemed very interested in what was going on. Little Ali got really into it, Stacey said. One of the newer families in the church had us all over Tuesday night, which was fun. They're in the midst of converting to Orthodoxy and are very much seekers...they have a daughter and son-in-law who come, as well...Stacey and I have really made friends with the whole family and get on well with them. The younger couple are sort of "liberal arts" types just a little bit older than us (well, Aaron is, but Molly's a year younger than I am) and involved with local theatre and that sort of thing...anyway, so Stacey's family has experienced the Divine Liturgy and are still alive! When the family was just sort of hanging about my apartment a few times I noticed her mom would look at stuff in our archdiocean magazine, as well.
I think I'll try and do a bit of replying here and there. Look for this this post to be edited to add more throughout the day...
I think the main thing with Luke (Stacey's brother) is that he's mainly looking for things to do, people to hang out with...the guitar thing is one of his few real hobbies and interests outside his job & family so that's convenient enough. As far as him being a person where there would be a lot of connection and whatnot...I'm not really sure. Luke's a pretty quiet guy but very thoughtful. He helps his dad run the yard and has been doing so for a few years, really, so he's one of these types who is very responsible and conscientious for his age. While just sort of a first scan or idea of him sort of shows him to be a young guy in rural Indiana who is interested in cars and Van Halen, he goes a lot deeper than that and while I'm not sure to what extent he's a "searcher," he's certainly got the potential to really understand deeper things and what's often *really* going on with situations. Anyway, do with it all what you will...I don't think he'll feel slighted or ignored or anything.
On the paragraph starting with "There are places" and the one after that:
Those are really things I'm wanting to institute in my life...I'm terribly undisciplined and the farther I find myself getting away from those things, the more I struggle with other things. I keep coming up with excuses/reasons like "this semester's so busy" and "we have all this planning to do!" but in reality, using that as a reason to get away from things like prayer and reading is hurting the very areas I'm using as excuses, as well. Like all this planning...I tend to get a bit impatient and annoyed over little things because I haven't taken the time to do good things. One of the guys in my church is a Benedictine Oblate and I'm really curious about working the Rule of St. Benedict into my lay life...I'm VERY hesitant to just leech onto something because it's a "program" that I would use in a legalistic way, the way I was brought up to do...and especially when making that part of my family, you know? So I think I'm going to just start in on that sort of thing (daily offices, etc.) gradually and build on that. I'm really at a loss as to why it's just so absolutely hard for me to do that when I absolutely WANT to.
Okay, adding a bit more...
The Vagrant thing is a real sore spot to me. I mean, seriously, say all you want about it and I probably agree and more aggressively than you'd put it.
To me, I think a lot of the music and film and book discussions have some substance, and that's half the reason the place exists, in my mind.
I guess the problem is that when you are pretty strong on "free speech" and not having heavy-handed moderation, you end up with a ton of drivel.
Honestly, though, I don't really think you're seen as the annoying Catholic, at least not by those who actually care about the good discussions and get involved with them. I mean, sure, some of the right-wing fundies might see you that way, but they see me as the "annoying Orthodox" guy. I've thought in the past about my own contributions in the same way you're thinking about yours, and decided that so long as I can do so in love and not aggressively shoving things down people's throats, I'll post as often as I want/can in regards to Orthodoxy or liturgical spirituality or mystical Christianity or whatever...I want a ton more of that than there is now and if it weren't for the fact that a lot of times I'm at work with a lot of people walking by or giving me projects, I'd be posting quite a bit more.
On top of that, a good number of people have posted that they really love reading your posts and love your presence. People like Jason/Opus, Seth, and so on, are really the people that the place is for...and even if the majority of people don't really care or want our sort of presence and input there, that's too (insert aggressive adjective HERE)ing bad because that's a big part of why the place is even around. I think that those who aren't going to read it just aren't going to read it, and those who are going to go into it with closed minds can't really be affected any more adversely...so I say let those who have ears to hear, hear...and it's great that there are those speaking the truth so that they can hear it.
As far as other forums go...here's one that I always mean to read more but don't all that much...though maybe more now as of today since I'm posting it here. : )
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php
Granted, it's not Roman Catholic, but I've read some really interesting stuff on there.
Also, ever since you came around the board, I've been REALLY considering making a separate invite-only Spirituality forum...I mean, no one would even be aware of it unless we told them. It sounds really snobby and exclusionist but at the same time, it'd be great to be able to discuss things without a few people leaping in every time and challenging what's already been beaten into the ground a million times....in other words, someone could post about priests not giving the Eucharist to people who vote Democrat and be able to discuss that without certain people going after the idea of Eucharist itself. In some ways I like the whole publicness of all of it because then people who wouldn't ordinarily seek it out will be exposed and really dig on some of it, but on the other hand, like I said, it's hard for some of us to have discussions beyond a certain point when Billy Baptist or Eddie Evangelical or Pablo Pentecostal tends to prohibit that. I'd just want to make sure that we still keep good discussions happening in the Spirituality forum.
I don't think you're being nitpicky and I certainly find no fault in the mood...and while it may be unusual to find edification in that sort of context, that's the sort of thing I really do want to build.
