Hey, I wanted to mention to you guys that there are some really good music resources out there. I'm in here from 8-5 generally and get tired of bringing my own CDs or just plain forget to! Also I may bring in a radio eventually to get the occasional Cubs game or listen to a new radio network popping up ( www.airamericaradio.com , I think) or to listen to NPR, but for listening to music, bringing a radio to work with me would be pointless because I'd spend half my day flipping channels and the other day sick of trying and end up looking for something else, anyway.
My point here is that I end up trying to find good music to stream on the internet. I've found a couple pretty good things and thought I'd mention them to you guys in case you're interested.
http://launch.yahoo.com is pretty cool. They have free stations (I think they pop up some ads within your listening window) and then for several bucks a month, you can subscribe and get access to more stations plus drop the ads. I subscribe because I figure if I listen to the stations even a total of one week out of the month, that's still less than a dollar a day PLUS it introduces me to some great new stuff and music I've not heard by really great artists both old and new. They have a decent folk station -- sometimes too many sort of modern cliches for my taste, but also stuff like dylan, springsteen, neil young, vic chesnutt, victoria williams, that sort of thing. the "cool as folk" station is pretty new and i've not really checked it out but looks really promising. I'd LOVE to see a vintage folk and blues station, but whatever. Their blues station is pretty good and for the most part keeps away from "Blueshammer" type crap. Of course I'm pretty big into the indie rock and pop stuff. Their Americana station is one of my favorites...I've heard a ton of great stuff on there, everything from Johnny Cash (they do have a "vintage country" station, too, fyi) to Gillian Welch and Wilco. I just saw that they must have just added a 70s soul station. Anyway...there's a ton of stuff over there and it's fun to check out.
Today I just discovered AccuRadio, as well. That's at accuradio.com, I believe. They are totally free but don't have anywhere near as many stations. They do have a couple worth noting: "Screamin' & Hollerin'," the blues station, I'm listening to right now...it's really quite good. I've heard Muddy Waters, RL Burnside, Chuck Berry, I forget who else...a couple more obscure artists. There's also a station called "Twang" that looks promising...the artists they list are not of the "hot new young country" variety.
Okay, just thought I'd toss those up for your perusal...
UPDATE: Okay, this Screamin' & Hollerin' station is what it's all about. Since I posted, they've played Mississippi John Hurt, Leadbelly, a couple Henry Thomas tunes, a couple Fat Possum Records cuts that I liked, Brownie McGee, and so on.
A couple suggestions and comments in regard to the potential post:
I think overall it's really quite good. I would edit a couple things, though:
1. the phrase "what the hell" and "pisspoor" at the beginning and the term "half-assed" later on. In Bartman's world (and that of a few who may read it, though obviously not most), the use of this kind of language invalidates anything a person says. We've had the discussion a million times before about how this shouldn't matter, but it still does in some circles. I mean, my dad's very reasonable and nowhere near wacky in the sense that Bartman is, but if I or someone I knew (other than Fr. Stephen, perhaps, for whom my dad has a ton of respect and enjoys talking with him) said those sorts of things, my dad would write them or me off pretty quickly.
2. In your first paragraph, I would add an s to "embarassed" and drop the r.
3. I do think your 4th paragraph is a good point, and is why I think Jeff and I keep letting the thread alone (because in reading it I keep finding more things I could post about, and I'm sure Jeff does too!), but then ol' Bartman comes back with something we can't in our consciences let go, I guess. It is really encouraging to see others come on and thank us and note that they've been benefited by all this. For their sake and for those who haven't posted about it, I think the time invested is very worth it.
You know, I was really looking forward to that webcast. I sent info about it to my professors, put it on my 60s class discussion board...but we ended up having Inquirers Class tonight and I missed it. I'll have to check for an audio archive file of some sort. I downloaded the bootleg of it from Soulseek recently but haven't given the whole thing a listen yet. I reeeeeally need to and I know this. : )
In other news, is it just me or does our pal B-man get crazier with every post? I did a pretty lengthy reply to him tonight...
Walker, you should totally invite bookstore girl to the show tonight. Make it sound like your friend set up this show (which he did) and it'll be really good (which it will) so she should come and hang out (which she should).
Of course, the opening solo act canceled on me, though that's not such a bad thing...but also the guy who is apparently in charge of booking (total ass clown, I took over his lease to get my apartment and that was an eye-opening experience) has been terrible about keeping in contact with me on pretty basic, easy, yet very important things. It's Lent and I rarely melt down anyway, but God help me, if anything's wacky tonight because of his lack of communication, there are no shortage of alleys in the neighborhood where we could discuss the situation. Violence is not the answer, of course, but I don't want to go on a tirade in public.
Anyway, enough of that...all that to say that I just had that idea.
I was thinking the past couple todays that most likely this week finds Saints Nicholas and Patrick debating whose feast day is the most abused. Omaha's as bad or worse than South Bend on St. Patrick's Day. I have a hard time not getting upset about it, honestly. I have no problem with alcohol consumption, but the issue is just the idiotic hedonism without so much as an attempt to have any idea about St. Patrick, his life, or his faith.
That reminds me of a fairly surreal moment yesterday. Dean and I stopped at the grocery store after work to buy some food for the band staying with us tonight. We started backing out of the parking space but stopped because this older guy (who works there) was gung ho pushing a group of carts behind us and clearly had no intention of stopping...I'm not sure we were even his radar. So I'm mostly out of the space but can't back up any further and the guy STOPS -- with the carts directly behind my car, of course. Walking toward him is a little girl and her mother. The old guy takes green beads from his pocket or something and tossed them to the little girl. Her mother had a sort of strange smile on her face, not quite sure what to make of the whole thing. Obviously the little girl hadn't "earned" the beads. Perhaps this is an object lesson in grace -- being given what you haven't earned (I'll give it to Bartman to use). It was just a really weird moment.
In other news, Jeff, THIS is why God directed you to get a DVD player this past week. This just came out a few days ago. If only I lived near your library...
Also, is it just me or are Bartman's replies getting more and more erratic and bizarre?
Thanks for the great post, all your honesty, suggestions, etc.
For me, all of this is so beautiful and has such an appeal and a pull and I desire it...yet I suck at it, it's hard for me to do.
For a while I was taking walks pretty regularly and saying the Jesus Prayer, doing the breathing, that sort of thing, quite a bit. I actually was getting a lot out of it. I say that not to say "Take that, Jeff!" because in all actuality, I needed to get a lot out of it in that period. At that time, I was just at the very beginning of searching out anything the least bit mystical or liturgical. I was terribly disenchanted with pretty much any and all churches at the time, having been absent from any kind of church, much less a meaningful service, order, or experience. I was really digging the idea of mystical Christianity (a redundant phrase, as we all know, but at the time something nearly an oxymoron to me!) but also skeptical, having been raised to criticize anything outside the "rational" and "fundamentalist" Protestant perspective. Of course I did go for a while to a non-denominational (later became a Vineyard -- the pastor helped found GCC, incidentally) church that was very supportive of a sort of "experience"-heavy Christianity and had found that lacking, as well. Anyway, I would go out and walk around in the woods by my house, or just around the block, and pray the Jesus Prayer, do the breathing, etc. If any of you guys remember Marcus that I worked with @ the bookstore...his mother had recently died of cancer...and it's interesting, the church his father pastors was well under a mile from my house, and I used to walk through the woods up to the parking lot and turn around, just as a sort of landmark. Well, I'd be walking and saying the Jesus Prayer and focusing on all that, and his various family members would pop into my head and I'd end up praying for them and some individual needs and whatnot for them...something about it was just very powerful. Also, as you guys know, the last couple years have had their very rough times what with psycho girlfriends and that sort of thing...and just meditating and using the Jesus Prayer has really sort of helped me stay centered. And, of course, in times that are better, I become neglectful...all this discussion and honesty is great, though, and is really helping me get going on this sort of thing more.
As far as the prayer ropes and knots goes, I think the "standard" is 100, though that really sort of varies. They sell little wrist near-bracelets with 25 knots on them. Fr. Stephen let Linda use his to show the kids on Sunday. Alex counted the knots and he counted 113 -- go figure. I think Linda said that there are other varying numbers based on the size of the rope. In Topeka, KS (just a few hours from us) there's an Orthodox museum and monastery (I keep intending to go visit them some Saturday when the weather is nice and I have no school...if that ever happens!) and one of the monks there has a prayer rope with huge knots and he hauls around everywhere. I think he attaches it to his rope, like around the hip, but has to carry it or it drags on the floor. Interesting stuff. I myself don't have one, but really need to get one.
I found a pretty interesting website posted to one of the Orthodox-themed discussion lists I'm on... www.odox.net . Among other things, they host a "liturgical texts project." You can find various liturgies, offices, ceremonial services and prayers there. One thing they have is quite a bit of Old English Orthodox material, which I find pretty fascinating.
Anyway, if anyone wants to, here's the Divine Liturgy we use on Sundays. We generally omit the "Comfortable Words" section and the homily is inserted after the Nicene Creed (though on days when other observances are put into the liturgy or something special is going on at coffee hour, there is no homily). We also tack onto the end of the service a Marian anthem and a prayer for intercession.
On weekdays, incidentally, we use the Liturgy of St. Gregory. I've not looked at that one online yet but I'd imagine it's pretty close to what we use, if not exactly. I've not checked out the vespers yet, either. I like looking at some of the other prayers, such as for mealtime and bedtime. I like the idea and think it's great, but hesitate to really incorporate something like that because I know myself and what I tend to do, and I'd find a way to start getting really far too legalistic about them. I do want to implement more order and offices and whatnot into my life...my soul demands it...but I also need to do so in such a way so as to maintain integrity of motivation and purity of intent and heart.
Thanks also for posting that about that VeggieTales video...very interesting. I do know that there's been a buyout on VeggieTales or something...either Big Idea sold the rights to VeggieTales to another company or they themselves got bought out...I do know that while VT has been wildly successful, Big Idea was building a huge complex and expanding while at the same time investing a ton of money into programs that didn't turn out to be quite so popular.
All right, talk to you guys later (perhaps see you tonight, Walker)...if I don't say so until then, have a great feast of St. Patrick.
Come on, Jeff, we all know that Dylan's not off ANY topic. Thanks for the link.
I was telling Walker about this last night, but I know you'll find it interesting, Jeff. Yesterday I went in as usual to teach Sunday School (an 11 and 13 year old sister and brother) and asked the other Sunday School teacher what her lesson to Philip, a 5 year old, was going to be about. She told me they were going to talk about the Jesus Prayer and then walk around outside a bit to find bark and twigs to attach to a cross on a piece of paper. This sounded *perfect* to me, so I asked if there was any chance of us combining. We actually included Philip in our class the last two weeks since she's been gone, so she kind of owed it to us, hehehe. Anyway, Philip never made it and she made it more detailed and applicable to the two in my class...it was really great. Stacey said she really enjoyed it, too, as she didn't know much about it. I felt a bit, you know, negligent in that...I mean, she read Franny & Zooey on my recommendation but we'd not talked about the Jesus Prayer much. Quite a bit of it, though, is that I'm trying to not overwhelm her with tons of info all at once, and then just haven't gotten to talking to her about that. The lesson really was quite good -- Linda talked about the different parts of the prayer and their significance within it...she also talked a bit about contemplative prayer in general. She was quite honest and made a point about how on some days, we struggle to just pray at all...it's difficult, we don't want to, life sucks, etc....and the Jesus Prayer is a way we can focus our mind and ask God for help amidst all of that. Anyway, it was really great and a pretty big elbow to the ribs for me, because I've just been so neglectful for way too long in regards to any sort of regular order and habit.
I do plan on taking the kids through the Stations of the Cross in a couple weeks. That should be really good...I've got that book that has pictures by an Omaha native artist and writing by a monk from Gethsamene that's very good and should be at least a little interest to them.
This sort of relates to your point about focus on ascetisism, introspection, contemplation, etc., in the Orthodox Church. I think that like anywhere, it varies from person to person and parish to parish. I would say that overall, there is more of an emphasis on it in general, but (and I say this while trying to withhold judgement) it barely registers a blip on some radars in some Orthodox folks, as well.
Also yesterday Stacey and I were at Borders (dangerous, indeed!) and I found this book published almost a year ago, em>The Life You Save May Be Your Own. It looks to be absolutely amazing...any book focusing on Merton, Dorothy Day, Flannery O'Connor, and Walker Percy stands out as a must-have, so it goes (high) on my "read very soon" list.
That's cool you took another materialistic step up (during Lent, no less) and got that DVD player, Jeff. Sorry, I had to. Anyway, if I think of any really great DVDs to recommend, I'll mention it. I buy very few and don't really even rent terribly often. For people who would rent pretty regularly, there's a service called NetFlix where for $20/mo you can rent as many as you want, no late fees, and a very extensive, diverse selection, I'm told. I think that to validate having it I'd have to be renting 4 or 5 DVDs a month and really, we don't. Frankly, cable (and before that, DSL) internet is a much better investment for me...I've found all kinds of sweet old stuff on Soulseek (the latest being Dock Boggs and the Dylan/Ginsberg stuff, I forget what else). That's really cool that the library invests in DVDs...even our main branch doesn't really have too many. It's been a few months since I looked, but last I checked they only had a very few I'd be interested in and the only one I've checked out is the Charlie Chaplin classic City Lights. I think I've only seen parts of Groundhog Day...I think they show it on television once in a while, I'll have to catch the whole thing one of these days.
Thanks also for the paragraphs on about you and Beth...any sort of stuff to keep in mind is really good at this point.
Walker: Have you gotten over to the Joslyn yet? Just curious...the whole art thing got me wondering.
A little more background on NorthAmerican Orthodox history...I find it interesting, anyway, hehe.
After 1917, the Russian Church itself was being persecuted and obviously unable to continue its work in NA. Around that time, within the next few years, an influx of immigrants from the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe resulted in quite a few more Greeks, Arabs, and Eastern European ethnicities who were also Orthodox immigrating...all during a time when whatever pre-existing structure was in place had disintegrated. The Russian Orthodox church (most of it) eventually became the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), but obviously only one of various different Orthodox churches around. For the first time, many cities and areas ended up being under more than one bishop (Omaha & area is technically under 4 -- Antiochian, Serbian, Greek, Coptic). We all do (for the most part) get along and are obviously in communion, so it's not like different "denominations" or that sort of thing. Some archdioceses have done much better at adapting English and reducing the whole ethnic element than others...the OCA and the Antiochian have especially put a lot of effort into this. With either of those two, you'll rarely find a non-Englishspeaking parish, and then it's because most or all members are Arab or Russian and they've been given a special understanding or whatever. What's really interesting is that within the last year, the Antiochian patriarchate (in other words, the patriarch and the bishops that make up the synod or whatever) voted and granted autonomy to the Antiochian Orthodox in America. This is a big step toward union with other Orthodox in America...I wouldn't doubt but what we will join more closely or sort of "merge" (terribly inaccurate word) with the OCA, since we both have autonomy now. I mean, REALLY, there should be one distinct American Orthodox Church (and plenty of room within that for different parishes to "be themselves" be they Western, Ukranian, Arab, Greek, Serb, whatever, and maintain the beautiful different tastes and differences between practices and customs). It isn't about assimilation or conformity, it's about a unified Church manifesting that unity and bonding together stronger for the sake of evangelism (not proselytizing, hehe), missions, social projects and influence, etc. I could go on and on about this and tell why I think the next 50 yrs will see a ton of progress in this area, but I need to take off...
Hey Walker, I'm jetting out of class in the next 5-10 minutes, so give me a call whenever...
Hey Guys...
A busy last few days has kept me from posting much, continuing discussion, etc...sorry. Last night's project went very well, hopefully I can talk more about it later.
Yesterday & today I'm in a MS Access class and not able to type quite as much as I sometimes can at work.
Walker, we should be done in class here today closer to 3 than 4...Michial will be downtown here already. If you want, just give me a call whenever you might want to head up here and I'll call you back once I'm done with class. I'm still not sure when we're all meeting at McFoster's, but maybe 6 would be good.
As far as the "Evangelical Orthodox" thing...what Gilquist is basically talking about in that book is a sort of "movement" (though I hate that term in this case and it's probably inaccurate) in which there are people sort of in a transition between Evangelical Protestant and Orthodox (they don't claim to be Orthodox but do claim to be practicing as such, and are generically recognized as "little o" orthodox). A good number of them actually end up becoming received into the Orthodox Church, usually the OCA (Orthodox Church of America). Many of them originally were folks turned off by the whole ethnic difficulties that sometimes arise and wanted to retain their Western identity while also being Orthodox but weren't able to find a non-ethnic parish near enough to them. Of course, there are also a very few (but growing number) of Western Rite parishes (mostly within the Antiochian Orthodox archdiocese) who retain Western identity while being authentically, canonical Orthodox -- we actually share the same English, Irish, and Latin heritage as Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism.
Here's a little bit on the EOC:
http://www.ogreatmystery.com/eoc/eocbrochure.html
There is a small group called the Evangelical Orthodox Catholic Church, but they don't look to have communion or recognition with much of anyone. I've not researched them much but their hearts seem to be in the right place...they just want to be sort of in all worlds without formal connections to anyone. I really feel for them.
I could go on a long thing here about Western identity, Orthodox faith & practice...perhaps at a later date (I sort of derailed from class, haha).
My honest to goodness take on the Baptist/Calvinist thing is that some, not all, Baptists have gotten gung-ho on Calvinism (like Jeff said, though, without fully understanding it) out of a need to have every last thing defined and "understood." Fundamentalist Protestants are as much a product of Rationalism and Humanism as anything else, as I think we all know, and Calvinism appears to be a pretty easy way to help explain everything (thus avoiding those pesky "mysteries"!). Of course, heresy is often defined as focusing too much on only part of the Truth, and I really believe this is the case here.
Schism: Yeah, Jeff and I have sort of talked about this one amongst ourselves in the past and it's always very refreshing how eye to eye we see. I agree that many Orthodox are a bit too bitter about the whole thing...I think that the scandals and sometimes lact of tact or admittance of wrong by the Vatican over the years all end up putting a black eye on liturgical, traditional Christianity as a whole and it's affected the Orthodox and the Anglicans by proxy.
As far as this statement: "well, you get that wrong (meaning filioque) and everything else will be screwed up too," goes...
I think there's a point in there that could be handled more tactfully. Fr. Stephen may have been who you heard this from, and I sort of cringe when I hear it (though certainly he has a good number of RC priest friends in the area, some of whom agree to some extent). I alluded to this in an earlier post, but to perhaps expand just a little bit...I understand the idea here, but I don't think it affects the everyday life of MOST Catholics, particularly priests and laypeople. The idea is that by saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, that that makes the Holy Spirit a sort of "lesser" member of the trinity. I think perhaps Bishop Ware gets into more detail on this in his book(s).
I found this piece that discusses the subject, giving a bit of history and explanation:
http://www.stjohndc.org/homilies/9607a.htm
My criticism of this is that it really doesn't go into HOW exactly this "subordination of the Holy Spirit" is exemplified within RC theological papers and everyday practice. I can accept the idea that something like this is "in the consciousness," I suppose, but not without an examination of how it got there...a council deciding something like this (which looks to be more a semantical than theological decision at the time) is one thing, but the creating of its presence "in the consciousness" happens through writing, homilies, practice, liturgical changes, etc., and I just don't have the information to see whether that's happened or not. I honestly think that certain elements of Augustinian thought (and Orthodoxy does recognize him as a Saint) have done much more damage over the years, and is definitely more traceable. Again, some of this may be my own lack of research time and effort. However, I think that if you asked just about any Roman Catholic with a concept of the trinity, hardly anyone would subscribe to the idea of the Holy Spirit as being subordinate within the Trinity. While I don't agree with the inclusion of the filioque, I honestly think it's an issue the Orthodox focus on a ton more than Roman Catholics.
And yes...the ethnic issue is a pretty sore spot within Orthodoxy and for those seeking. Fr. Stephen talks about this a good bit in Seekers classes. It's slowly getting better, but still not where things should be. I'm fortunate enough to be in a place where non-ethnic Orthodoxy is available (actually in 2 churches in Omaha), and as a result of that the Greek church is less "ethnic" as well. I also very much appreciate the opportunity to worship in a Western Rite mass. I LOVE the Eastern/Byzantine liturgy, but the Western I sort of identify with just a little bit more (as you both may remember, it's pretty similar to traditional RC and high church Anglican, I think). We talked a bit this past week about the history of Orthodoxy in America and why there's a good bit of ethnic difficulty. The short version is that it was agreed upon that the Russian Archdiocese would be in charge of Orthodoxy in North America, the idea being that Orthodox churches in America would mostly speak English (Orthodoxy generally goes with local vernacular) and be all one Church. At the time, the Russian Church was quite large and already had a very strong base in Alaska and other areas along the West Coast (though by the end of the 19th Century that had started to diminish due to America's purchase of Alaska and the consequent proselytization by Protestants in conjunction with Russian leaders of gov., business, and religion all being taken back to Russia). One of the early people in charge of ministering to the Americas was Raphael, who was actually Syrian (and thus Antiochian Orthodox) but selected for North America, trained in Russia, etc. He is actually venerated as a St. now, sometimes called "Shepherd of the Americas" or something like that. Anyway, obviously 1917 changed a lot of things, and one of those things is that the structure of Orthodoxy in North America sort of dissipated. (more to come...gotta go to lunch now).
Ah, yes...big can 'o worms here.
To some extent, what we believe about the issue is reflected in our choice of church, I suppose...no use denying that.
The truth is, the two split from each other. Some heavy-duty political issues were involved and honestly, I think those affected the situation as much as anything. Of course, those political circumstances aren't relevant at all as opposed to the more static realm of theology, so that's what gets remembered. Ware's book spends a pretty good amount of time delving into the complexities of the whole situation. Certainly other factors entered in...St. Augustine is much more influential in the West than in the East, and the implications of some of his teachings are evident in RC dogma (The Immaculate Conception of Mary, not just of Christ; teachings in regard to original sin) and practice (celibacy and chastity for ALL priests; attitudes toward sexuality). He, of course, lived well before the Great Schism...so all this was sort of separating East from West and West from East slowly throughout the years. Yes, papal primacy and the filioque turn out to be the defining moments but the inability to work through those was a result of growing divisions (both theologically and politically) that had been taking place for generations. Most Orthodox will teach RC split away from Orthodoxy, and I believe that's true to the extent that one bishop (well, patriarch) and his people went a separate way from the other bishops/patriarchs. One can't avoid answering the question one way or another but the situation was and is much more complex than many Orthodox and RCs want to let on.
In regards to papal primacy, the Orthodox still recognize the Pope as "first among equals." St. Peter was also bishop in Antioch, not just Rome. Again, much of the situation involved politics that extended far beyond the Church and flared up a situation that probably could (and should!) have been settled otherwise.
As far as the filioque goes...I have a difficult time really expressing the issue. I understand what it all means and I understand the implication of saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only as opposed to from the Father and the Son, but I'm really hesitant to put words in the mouths of Roman Catholics on this one.
I think your self-assessment regarding yourself and Beth and her family makes a lot of sense, Jeff. Even though we definitely tend to enjoy the counter-cultural aspects of our lives (both past and present), we still contain the need to exist within a community and be recognized as a part, albeit a different part, of that. We end up having a sort of conflicting sense in the whole family situation like this: we are who we are, are concerned with the search within and outside that; and truth, goodness, beauty, purity, integrity are important to us (we ARE "Idealists," after all!); on the other hand, we understand the need for acceptance -- not so much out of a selfish need to be validated (though I know for me, that element definitely is involved, and not necessarily a bad thing) so much as our need for harmony. We recognize that true harmony comes not when people are silent for the sake of avoiding confrontation, but when each person is "realized" and "actualized" and understood and accepted as such. I think another big part of this could be that you love Beth and the kids so much and realize that everything is a package deal with you all as a family...and that you want things to be great and harmonious for HER sake (and the kids' sake) perhaps much more than your own. In accepting you, they're more fully accepting her.
I do know how those situations go -- sitting and hoping nothing too outrageous comes up where you within yourself will have to choose. I get that in my own family and in Stacey's, which you already know is big and loving. At Christmas we went and visited her aunt and uncle's house. Her uncle either has or is working on a Master's degree, I forget what sort. Very intelligent, interesting guy. The funny thing is that he's Pentecostal and is one of the few I've met who actually CARES, much less can talk about deeper spirituality, have intelligent discussions on social issues, and accept ideas not necessarily in line with their own. I don't say that blindly -- I grew up with a few Pentecostals always around, and then at the bookstore job was in constant interaction with them. Stacey said we'd get along pretty well and she's right. Anyway, her parents are considerably open-minded and very kind people, and that helps out quite a bit....more than I can say for some of my relatives!
In regards to meeting Michial sometime...I've asked him to be in the wedding, as well, so you'll meet him this summer, hopefully...he's talking to our English Graduates chair or whatever here in about half an hour and I have a feeling he'll wind up in Omaha next fall, which would be great. We've not gotten as much of a chance to just sit and talk about stuff as I'd like as it's a very busy time for me, but even just here and there is good.
Speaking of which...Walker, Michial and I are going out Friday night with Ryan and Jenni (who I think you may have met but I'm not sure) to McFoster's (the great vegetarian place here). If you want to come along, let me know...I don't know what the schedule or anything is yet, just that we're going there that night. I don't remember if there's a big show or not this weekend...I think a band called Ester Drang that's really pretty good is playing Sokol in the next few days. If you've got next Friday night off, I've got a great show lined up at the coffee shop a couple blocks away from me. It'll start around 9pm. I can post my official announcement info at the end of this post.
I've not really checked out any of those books you mentioned other than the Gilquist one. I don't remember if he goes much into schism explanation history or not in there or not. The best place to go to read about that from an Orthodox perspective (an actually very balanced one, though still obviously from one side's viewpoint) is Timothy (now known as Bishop Kallistos) Ware's book The Orthodox Church. This is sort of the canonical "intro to Orthodoxy" book (well, along with another of his, The Orthodox Way) for English-speaking seekers and curious. Ware is English, grew up Anglican (I believe he may have been a priest), and is a respected academic (he teaches at Oxford). His Anglican background really shows up in the books, I'm told -- I read them very early on (and need to revisit them, actually) and wouldn't have been able to pick on that at that time.
Being on day shift and all this week, I'll invite you again to your Seekers Class tonight. : ) Not trying to be pushy or anything, just letting you know it's available. It'll probably start around 7 and you can just come to my house and ride with us if you want. Stacey said she'll cook tonight so I'm not sure whose house (Run's house) we'll eat at but you can always give me a call if you're dropping by. As far as visiting a church, I'd definitely recommend a Pascha/Easter service somewhere. We have a midnight mass (though things start up around 10:30 with a Paschal Vigil), which may be more in line with your natural schedule, hehehe.
I'll try to revisit and post more later on today. We have a birthday party happening in our office in just a couple minutes and updating this during that (with my desk in full view) would be difficult.
Well, in your defense (hehehe)...while I don't know your total motives, and I myself sometimes stumble into pride in these sorts of discussions, I think you're doing a great thing. See...bartman, you, and me aren't the only ones who look at that stuff. While Bartman may be a "lost cause" as much as anyone can be, many others are seeing this stuff for the very first time. In fact, most if not all are seeing it for the first time...some of what you posted I've certainly not researched and I'm learning quite a bit!
I would say, too, that in researching and typing out a response you are certainly meditating and contemplating in an equally powerful way as prayer. Like I said before, you're helping others do so as well. I DO have people contact me fairly frequently asking questions about Orthodoxy and deeper, more liturgical and contemplative Christianity. Most people on there are very unfamiliar with where you, me, and Walker perhaps are in our spiritual journey, but they ARE familiar with the feelings and yearnings that led us to begin our journeys.
I honestly don't expect that current discussion to go much more...I'm really curious as to where he could go, but I think you really did a great job of addressing all that. Thanks...seriously, I really appreciate it.
Incidentally, Michial's staying at my house right now and tonight we were talking about just how ludicrous bartman's claims are. I mean, really...if you need explained to you what's wrong with Jack Chick, there's just something wrong.
I must say I admire your patience and tact in that whole discourse with "Bartman," Jeff. I really struggled with what exactly to say. Thank God it's Lent and I'm trying to work on being kinder in my words, because...yeah. That guy rarely posts anything of much actual substance, really, just hops into arguments with cut & paste arguments derived from terribly "researched" sources, few of which he actually documents. This is a guy quite a bit older than either of us. He homeschools his kids, of course. And he's from Texas, which explains a bit, hehehe. Seriously, most of the people who are most difficult to deal with on the Vagrant Cafe are from Texas.
In some ways, though, this is a good thing. People who may just be browsing it for a bit and been fed the lines of bs he's posting and just sort of went along with it may discover just how weak it actually is. I try to keep that in mind in these sort of situations and it does help me to be gracious. One of the things I actually mentioned in my last sacramental confession is that I need to spend a bit of time in prayer before replying and engaging in these sorts of discussions -- not only to give a godly, enlightening response but also because at times I lose my patience and rip off a blistering, assholian retort. I think we all grew up being taught that "Being Right" is numero uno, and being gracious comes as a sort of optional side salad...it's tough to get away from that.
Hey Jeff, you may want to check out the Pop Culture forum...Chris Estey is asking about reggae (the "Help Me, I'm White" thread) and you're just the man to answer it, hehe.
So on my Culture of the 60s protest idea down below...both the girls and my professor thought it was really great. We're going to wear a couple daisies to make sure people understand that we're not ACTUALLY Dow people.
What I really enjoy about this is not only having the idea and doing the project, but also I guess the other circumstances. The two girls I'm working with are journalism majors and have really felt lost with a lot of the analyzation and deeper stuff we're talking about in the class...they both talk about how some of the people in the class (myself included) "use a lot of big words" and concepts and whatnot. Anyway, they like the class and enjoy it, but are really excited about this project. One of them will be researching and giving a presentation on Agent Orange, the other on Napalm (both giving horrifying details and statistics as if they're trying to sell how GREAT it is, but sarcastically as hippies, of course). I don't know, there's just something really great about seeing people get excited about researching and doing a project and learning and knowing I'm really helping that happen. Got me really thrilled, I guess. Between my ideas for this project (both the sugar one and this one) and the song I played a couple weeks ago, they think I'm some sort of countercultural genius and have this weird sort of...awe, I guess...when we meet or talk during breaks in class about this stuff. And yeah, another person came up and asked me to hook them up with some music info, too. Fun times.
In other interest, last night on my way to sleep I started reading about Pope Clement's letter to the Corinthians back in 95-96 AD. Pretty interesting...more thoughts on that once I've read all of it.
Those Hoffman moments are among my favorites, as well...he's definitely one I plan to read more of hopefully this summer.
My original idea regarding this project was about something NOT specifically 60s-oriented...I'll paste it here:
"I obviously don't really know either of you and you don't really know me (I'm the one who played the Billy Bragg song last week, if that helps ring a bell) but I'm curious as to your own socio-political leanings. I have a protest idea or two that are sort of in the vein of Abbie Hoffman's "guerilla theatre" aesthetic...is that the sort of thing with which you might align yourselves? The major idea I have would be to protest President Bush's refusal to accept the World Health Organization's global anti-obesity campaign -- essentially the W.H.O. has come out and said "junk food is bad for you, let's try to reduce intake, particularly in children, and reduce the amount of sugar both the food we eat and in our overall diet." The Bush Administration has opposed and refused to join up, disputing these claims and goals. One must wonder "why?" and upon a closer look, finds that the same associations of food corporations that (for obvious reasons) oppose this are also VERY heavy contributors to Bush.
What we could do to "protest" this in a Hoffmanesque fashion is to have one or two of us walk from desk to desk pouring out sugar onto each person's desk (don't worry, this is easy to clean up, just brush it all into a trashcan). We would distribute leaflets to each person summing up the issue -- our "aim" is to inform people of what's going on since this is probably off most everyone's radar. Meanwhile one of us poses as Bush standing at a podium. He gives a "speech" -- and during the time he gives his speech, the person distributing the sugar intermittently walks up to him and gives him "money."
As far as Bush's speech goes...(and this is where if you're a Bush supporter you may not see the humor/relevancy in this) -- if you're familiar at all with "Waiting for Godot," you'll remember that one point "Lucky" (a mentally handicapped servant) does a trick in which he "thinks" on command. This "thinking" consists of spouting a bunch of words that SOUND intellectual, businessy, official, etc., but are clearly just someone saying things he's overheard and thinks are intelligent, whether or not they actually make sense. I'm thinking our "Bush" could read this while interspersing various comments regarding this whole sugar thing -- we could quote directly from the letter to W.H.O. if we want."
They actually both liked the idea but mentioned that I should probably check with the prof about doing something 60s, which is the case.
So...here's the 60s-related idea. One of them likes it, the other hasn't responded but will probably fall in line.
Back in the 1960s company, Dow Chemical company manufactured two (well, probably more) major chemical weapons used in Vietnam: napalm and Agent Orange. They even continued to develop these for maximum effect. I included a couple great links that discuss this at more depth.
Quite a few student demonstrations took place to protest Dow Chemical company. Dow used to go recruit at college campuses, which was not well received by anti-war students. In Madison, it started a riot. Other major protests took place in places like San Jose and New York U.
We could stage a "Dow-in" or "teach-in" type thing in regards to Dow Chemicals. Pretend that we as protestors are impersonating Dow corporate representatives talking about their GREAT products and the positive effect they're having. We could, of course, show pictures up front on a screen that illustrate the terrible devastation brought about by napalm...perhaps show them as a slide show with a fitting song playing in the background. We could also distribute fact sheets with basic information on napalm and Agent Orange, but written in a false corporate tone.
In addition, we could pass around a bucket or tray or something containing some of Dow's "products": a couple of their actual neutral items (they also have produced things like styrofoam and Saran wrap) as well as a burnt up baby doll to symbolize the real effects of napalm on thousands of children in Vietnam.
http://www.studentsforbhopal.org/DirtyDow.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/Dow_napalm.html
What of Dow Chemical and napalm? Four American physicians, in a report, "Medical Problems of South Vietnam," have written: "Napalm is a highly sticky inflammable jelly which clings to anything it touches and burns with such heat that all oxygen in the area is exhausted within moments. Death is either by roasting or by suffocation. Napalm wounds are often fatal (estimates are 90 percent). Those who survive face a living death. The victims are frequently children." Napalm is dropped daily on the villages, the forests, the people of Vietnam by American bombers; the saturation bombing of that tiny country is one of the cruelest acts perpetrated by any nation in modern history; it ranks with the destruction of Lidice by the Germans, the crushing of the Hungarian rebellion by the Russians, or the recent mass slaughter in Indonesia. Dr. Richard E. Perry, an American physician, wrote in Redbook in January 1967, on his return from Vietnam: "I have been an orthopedic surgeon for a good number of years, with rather a wide range of medical experience. But nothing could have prepared me for my encounters with Vietnamese women and children burned by napalm. It was shocking and sickening, even for a physician, to see and smell the blackened flesh."
By the way, just so you know, Jeff...the "Michial" (his real name) guy on the board is a good friend of mine. In fact, he's visiting on his spring break, flying in this weekend. He's visited a couple times before and really digs Omaha, it's a good time. I'm hoping you can hang out with us at some point, Walker...I think you probably met him at Cornerstone, we've hung out there a few times.
Michial's a really good guy. He actually was someone who turned me on to Orthodoxy a bit back in the day...got me interested in the Monks of New Skete, among other things. I don't know that he's as actively seeking/pursuing that these days. He's done some reviews and whatnot for the vagrant cafe, as well. Really great guy...he does a good bit of songwriting and has done some recording, actually. He's someone who would probably actually enjoy our little blog here, if we ever feel like sharing it with anyone else...whatever you guys think.
All right, well, I better get a bit more work done, it's almost 5. I'll tell you what, thinking of these ideas has gotten me a little excited and makes me want to actually get out and DO them somewhere. I would love to work with an organization and do the sugar one at the Republican Convention 2004 or something...anyone feel like getting arrested?
Those books sound really great, Jeff...I'll have to reference that post in a few years or something.
Quick question:
for our culture of the 60s class, we need to do a group project. we have two options:
1. to do a 3 minute newscast from one day in the 1960s recapping the top headlines; OR
2. stage a protest of some sort pertaining to one of the issues in the 60s (Vietnam would be one, but there are others). The description says we can do a reading, poetry, songs, speaking...it just lasts 10-15 minutes.
I think it would be really great to do some sort of street theater idea (something along the lines of the Diggers' or Yippies' antics, you know, Abbie Hoffman style).
Any ideas? I had a GREAT idea for a more contemporary issue (I'll post that later sometime, it would be fun) but found out it had to be from the 60s specifically during the time I was sick, and my creativity's been at ground zero since dropping caffeine. It's due a week from tomorrow but I'd really like to be able to present my projectmates ( a couple girls who don't really have many of their own ideas and will go along with pretty much whatever I'd suggest, within reason ) by tomorrow night.
